Curse

Tharkon · May 14, 2005, 03:06 PM // 15:06

You all -in west, have heard lies about the system of communism and lies about your own system of capitalism and liberalism. This simple guide to what capitalism shows how the companies exploit uss, how govourments keep uss in check by saying terrorist - or patriot, how the whole system is designed to lure and trick uss into a never ending meal for the vampire - the profit.

http://www.prole.info/introduction/intro_0.html

Check it. Tell me if you agree or not and debate it. I can take intellectual critique and good arguments. Though try to keep your "Bloody commie get out of here" comments out of here. If you wan't to proove me wrong that will only enforce how stupid those who follow capitalism are (besides the capitalists them self who ofcourse get rich on capitalism)

Inde · May 14, 2005, 03:32 PM // 15:32

I absolutely agree with Marx when he said (verbatim) that "capitalism will collapse on itself". I do want to modify that to say that "unchecked capitalism will collapse on itself" - I am seriously scared with the power that large multinational corporations posses.

Beer w/Straw · May 14, 2005, 04:25 PM // 16:25

My name is Pythagoros.

I pay my taxes; goverment thinks so I don't have to.

Do not bother me with politics, for I am working on a master triangle plan to rule the world!

Spartan2 · May 14, 2005, 05:02 PM // 17:02

As by my avatar, you should know where I stand on this matter. This is just what I have been saying all along: "If we don't fix the system now, then there will be a revolution between the poor and the rich. This will occur in the United States or a smaller democratic nation and will then spill out into all out war in every country."

This intolerence, bigotry, and ignorance must stop if we are to effectively start the revolution.

Sekkira · May 14, 2005, 05:19 PM // 17:19

I agree whole-heartedly with this site bad-mouthing capitalism. It summed up how I feel about this world perfectly in words I couldn't have said myself.

HOWEVER; They try to stray from being labelled as communists and anarchists but that's exactly what they are really. Sorry to say it, but I completely disagree with what they stand for. For one, police are there to keep the peace and they try to put of breaking the law as something right (not that I'll deny that there are some pretty ****ing stupid laws out there), but the laws are there mainly to protect the citizens usually.

Also it's all well and good breaking from the capitalist bonds they've been born into, but from what I can tell, they don't seem to be organised. If something like this is going to be done, you have to properly plan it. Say we all overthrow our country and live in a communist society. What then? We're delved into anarchy, someone has to rise up and control this, to take lead; which is exactly what happened in Russia early 20th century, completely abolishing the notion of communism.

This brings me to my final point. The human race can't really survive in a pure communist society unless something is done to make everyone happy. The scientists and engineers who spend years being educated earning the same as close to street bums who are only qualified enough to pick up garbage (Not saying that isn't an important job, it's damn important but requires minimal effort to do). We also don't seem to be at a point where we can govern ourselves, we NEED a leader regardless of how poor leadership skills they have, at least they're holding the country together.

I'm not saying that's the only way communism is, the whole "Everyone gets paid the same" deal, as that would be pure ignorance. I'm also not saying I have a better solution aside from communism or capitalism. Perhaps we need to form a plan that includes some good from both extremes or maybe someone who is a better thinker then I could come up with something completely different. For now though, I don't see anything working.

Tharkon · May 14, 2005, 05:36 PM // 17:36

This only prooves how the worker class in capitalist is rottening and has no self pride nor self judgment but is already so pumped by lies from the CIA and such organisation that they can't even give some good arguments besides these. Will the leftist can.

This also prooves that it is time to go to action before it's to late brothers and sisters.

-----

"HOWEVER; They try to stray from being labelled as communists and anarchists but that's exactly what they are really. Sorry to say it, but I completely disagree with what they stand for. For one, police are there to keep the peace and they try to put of breaking the law as something right (not that I'll deny that there are some pretty ****ing stupid laws out there), but the laws are there mainly to protect the citizens usually."

Wrong. As explained in the guide the laws are there to stop uss from revolting. Let's take the example in the story: Some men and women have no house, no home. There's an empty apartment building standing there. The landlord is waiting for somone to bid higher, and higher, untill the poor homeless person can't affoard his underwear. Instead of letting this happen this group of people occupy this building -just to have somwhere to live. Then the police and army goes in and calls this teenage rebellion, or terrorism or something like this. They crush the small group with guns and snipers and smoke grenades and then say the small group started shooting at the police first. (Which ofcourse they didn't they didn't wan't to have anything to do with the police, but the police came to them). In this example (as most other) the police is there only to supress the working class (most off uss) and help the capitalists (the ones who own the capital.) .

"Also it's all well and good breaking from the capitalist bonds they've been born into, but from what I can tell, they don't seem to be organised. If something like this is going to be done, you have to properly plan it. Say we all overthrow our country and live in a communist society. What then? We're delved into anarchy, someone has to rise up and control this, to take lead; which is exactly what happened in Russia early 20th century, completely abolishing the notion of communism."

As explained in the link. If we are united and equall -if there only is one class of people then there is no need to govourn anyone, since conflicts are often built upp around the fact that somone is more rich than somone ellse and this poorer person want's the richer ones money.

"This brings me to my final point. The human race can't really survive in a pure communist society unless something is done to make everyone happy. The scientists and engineers who spend years being educated earning the same as close to street bums who are only qualified enough to pick up garbage (Not saying that isn't an important job, it's damn important but requires minimal effort to do). We also don't seem to be at a point where we can govern ourselves, we NEED a leader regardless of how poor leadership skills they have, at least they're holding the country together."

Actully mate. I just heard on the news that many academics and such go and work to build tunnels in the US cause it pays more ... and in sweden garbage thingy pays more than say doctor. Besides. We will all be getting so much money since 1. If you lower everyones sallery who earn 5 000 dollars + and give it to the people everyone will be getting around 4000-5000 dollars every month. Which is perfectly enough for uss all. Besides when we are equall it's easier to share things. I have this dream of cars standing besides parks and houses and buildings and that you don't need a key to enter them.
This is merley a dream, but maybe something close to it is possible in a society where people are economicly equall!

I hope this answers something.

Yours,

Sekkira · May 14, 2005, 05:40 PM // 17:40

And then what? Hope for a dictator that isn't corrupted with power and knows how to run a country? I'd rather stay with pure democracy where the people decide how the country is run. Which is almost what Australia is like. (We all have a say in who runs the country and everyone's vote counts)

Ascension · May 14, 2005, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Every system is flawed if it relies on the Corrupt. Simple as that. Communism is great in theory, but I wouldn't say Stalin was beneficial for it's image (as an example). For the ideal to work, you can't have one of the many corrupted, self-indulgent leaders of the world today. Perhaps tomorrow...

Currently today, there isn't a system that genuinly lies with the people. As I said, maybe another day.

Ascension · May 14, 2005, 06:06 PM // 18:06

564656.657 ... why?

Oh, and no rounding - decimals > all!

Inde · May 14, 2005, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Unfortunately, communism is idealistic. It assumes hard work and fairness, something I do not believe humans as a whole are capable of doing.

Furthermore, capitalism is also idealistic. Greed and corruption is rampant. Canada is backlashing from the Liberal Party scam (which was preceeded by the Conservative Party scam). In the US we have the Republican scare mongering, but all moot as both the Republicans and Democrats are nothing more than shells of people beholden to their corporate sponsors.

In the end, I think democracy+capitalism+socialism (ala Canadian style) is the best. But there are still huge problems - there definately need to be checks and balances brought into the capitalistic system. Just the spending done in the last US election was grotesque and disgusting.

But thats okay. People are scared because the terrorists are out to get them. (that is for another day).

Loviatar · May 14, 2005, 06:33 PM // 18:33

the communists of germany had to build a wall and kill the people trying to escape from the workers paradise

the people themselves tore down the wall to escape to the west

they voted with their feet and lives

Tur713 · May 14, 2005, 06:44 PM // 18:44

I'm all for the idea of Communism if it would work. Yet, due to inate human nature we will never be able to achieve it because we as humans are vain. There is always those who want to fell better than others, those who want more than others, those who want what others have. Even if we manage to share everything, we cannot share people. Relationships would lead to others being envious of other and therefore not willing to work with them. This is my phylosophy on human nature and I do not believe a truly Communistic society would ever work. Our government may not be perfect, (in fact, I'm terribly not fond of it) but it is better that some of those out there and it works enough for now. All in all, if we're heading fo reform, I think Socialism is the way to go right now.

Inde · May 14, 2005, 07:47 PM // 19:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

the communists of germany had to build a wall and kill the people trying to escape from the workers paradise

the people themselves tore down the wall to escape to the west

they voted with their feet and lives

That wasnt communism as an ideal. That was more of an authorative government.

Devil's Dictionary · May 14, 2005, 09:14 PM // 21:14

This website made me very angry. I am noticing that "communism" is seen as "cool", "in". People start to forget about U.S.S.R. and see only the theory of that system.
Before I got on, I need to tell you that I was born in 1987, in Moscow, U.S.S.R.
Growing up, I always wondered WHAT turned wrong in my country. After long years of cogitation, I concluded: it's the "Communism" which is wrong.

Communism, initially, is a positive idea. People work because they want to, not because they need to. Money doesn't exist, everyone are equal and have everything they need. The planet is not divided into countries as the political frontiers are abolished. Socialism was supposed to be the system which led to it all and look what it has become. The past of royal Russia was far from peaceful yet never there have been so much slaughter as in those revolutions: never so many great people were gunned down like dogs because they fought for or against a ghost of an idea which was a fake from the beginning.

There were many attempts of communism--Cuba, China, Vietnam--but did any of them succeed? In all of those countries the parties eventually gathered too much power to remain stable. In Cuba, Fidel Castro initially fought against Fulgencio Batista: he wanted only the best for his country yet today he is looked upon with scorn. It proves that socialism turns even good people into despicable tyrants. In China, the situation is just like in Orwell's 1984: the country lies in terrible poverty except for the elite few.

I am not saying Communism is a bad system. I am saying that it is impossible to attain and people who believe otherwise are dangerous. I can illustrate my example even using Guild Wars: people ask for rewards in GW PVP as they do not want to play it just for the challenge. For similar reasons, I assure you that few will work for free. Again, had you a trillion dollars in your bank, would you stay home to play Guild Wars or go to work at 6 am? Men were not, are not and will not be equal. We are different individuals with different qualities and defaults. I cannot imagine a working system which treats everyone the same way.

Edit: Anarchy is even worse as nothing can exist without laws.
Say there's total anarchy. I go outside and a man accidently bumps into me. Without thinking, I take out a parabellum I carry arround and plant a bullet between his dark eyes. Bam! Nobody's there to stop me. Every anarchist I know is just a kid who wants more than he deserves, does not think of consequences and hates his parents because it's considered "cool".
"When the man is 20, he is a socialist. When he is 50, he is a conservative."

Spartan2 · May 14, 2005, 09:20 PM // 21:20

The only way communism would have worked was if it was the first established government. No one would have had the built up "human nature" of greed or lust because it wouldn't have been trodden into "human nature". Greed, lust, vanity, and war are only "human nature" because we choose to accept that it is that way, so it must be so. Humans as a whole are too lazy for change when it is not needed; too stupid to think for themselves, unless they have to, because they have a government to tell them that everything is alright, a religion that tells them that as long as they accept what they tell them to be the Truth then no matter what they do they can't be commiting a wrong or an injustice. To the masses, Ignorance is bliss, suffering is life, and hate, intolerance, and bigotry is just the way it is. To change is to threaten their way of life, albeit it is one of great misfortune to those with ambition.

The perfect world would be one of unlocked doors to physical world gain for all and the reaching toward mental infinite. Everyone works hard to get what they need and builds up their mortal paradise. Tolerance is the national creed. Ideas are free to be exchanged and money is made obsolete as a Global Society merges towards whole and pure.

If this could happen, then everything promised by the scriptures and prophets of Old of all religions would not be needed. Earthly peace would be established and there would be no need for Corporations, Governments, Middlemen, and Religions. This is why their is so much resistance towards this movement: it threatens all establishments that have been in power since society bloomed for the first time. This is why the Catholic church opposed the Illuminati and enlightened minds during the Renaissance and this is why the U.S opposed the spread of Communism during the Cold War.

Devil's Dictionary · May 14, 2005, 09:26 PM // 21:26

Wishful thinking.
The human nature is not such because we are "used" to be lustful and violent.
If you believe in Darwin's theory of evolution, then you know we have evolved from animals. Do animals have communism? No. Are they violent and greedy? Yes.
If you believe in Genesis, you must remembere that men are easily tempted, as shown by the first sin, are curious and (remembering Cain and Avel), are lustful and violent.

Willow · May 14, 2005, 09:53 PM // 21:53

As a communist I will say only this: I don't talk about communism on the internet. It just makes me (and usually everyone I'm talking with) angrier than if the conversation hadn't happened.

Inde · May 14, 2005, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by DEATH AT THE DOOR

There were many attempts of communism--Cuba, China, Vietnam--but did any of them succeed? In all of those countries the parties eventually gathered too much power to remain stable. In Cuba, Fidel Castro initially fought against Fulgencio Batista: he wanted only the best for his country yet today he is looked upon with scorn. It proves that socialism turns even good people into despicable tyrants. In China, the situation is just like in Orwell's 1984: the country lies in terrible poverty except for the elite few.

1. Cuba, USSR, Vietnam etc - while you speak of it, how many were also left alone from US incursions and economic influence? They were never allowed to just 'be'

2. If anything is Orwellian, its the current US government.

Spartan2 · May 14, 2005, 09:59 PM // 21:59

*Offers hand shake to DEATH AT THE DOOR
I'll agree to disagree if you do. I see validity in your argument and seeing as there is no ultimate way to prove anything unless you die and are able to see the complete history of the world in unadulterated form. So without further remarks, I will conceed my argument to your counter, if your counter conceeds to my argument.

Devil's Dictionary · May 14, 2005, 10:05 PM // 22:05

Quote:

*Offers hand shake to DEATH AT THE DOOR
I'll agree to disagree if you do. I see validity in your argument and seeing as there is no ultimate way to prove anything unless you die and are able to see the complete history of the world in unadulterated form. So without further remarks, I will conceed my argument to your counter, if your counter conceeds to my argument.

*Shakes hand*
I wish the world had more people like you.

Quote:

1. Cuba, USSR, Vietnam etc - while you speak of it, how many were also left alone from US incursions and economic influence? They were never allowed to just 'be'

2. If anything is Orwellian, its the current US government.

1. Oh, sure! Blame everything on the US! Bad US! Bad! Stalin should've nuked them when he could and we'd all live in peace.

2. I'd say the current situation is closer to Aldous Huxley's vision.